The Wine Knows

I live in Tokyo, Japan but hail from NJ. I drink a lot of WA/OR wine here because I like it and it is available through some distributors (Orca being the best known and most reliable). My price thresholds are the following (converted to USD):

Everyday wine: $15 to $35 (even the cheapest Woodbridge or other bulk label wine which sells for $6-7 in the US is about $10-12 here, with $8 to 10-in-NJ better labels such as CA's Cline at Y1800, or $16-17, at least). This will usually be a Chilean or Argentinian import, or perhaps a lower-end WA cabernet such as Snoqualmie.

Once or twice a week wine: $45-75 (this includes Pepperbridge, Woodward Canyon, L'Ecole, Dunham, Domaine Serene, Bergstrom, Torii Mor, Domaine Drouhin, Reininger, etc.) Woodward Canyon's Artist Series cab is about $45-50 here; a reasonable price given the scarcity here and the distance it's travelled, as well as the efforts of the importer/distributor to actually have it here.

Once or twice a month wine: $80-100, maybe $120-150 in really "good" months. In this category we have Cayuse, Leonetti, higher-end bottlings by L'Ecole or Woodward Canyon, my CA favorites Phelps or Darioush, occasionally a premier cru Burgundy or second-growth Bordeaux, all available here, if scarce for some labels. I don't need a special occasion; I just pick a day or two out of the month when I know I can enjoy the wine in a good setting, and be sure I can finish the bottle within two nights tops. I am in finance so a "good" month is a month where the markets have done well for me.

Usually I don't look at anything over $120-150 but if I do it must be a very, very special wine (i.e. birth year or a producer that I absolutely want for some reason specifically). Up to $200, $300 or more for one bottle of wine is, for me personally, unjustifiable. For others it's not - understandably - and there are cases where I'd take a look, as noted - but there's too much I like and enjoy for half that, and at very close quality (mid-90s point scoring Pinots from Oregon and similarly-hailed cabs/merlots from WA selling for $60-80 here are much better cost/performance, in my mind).

Collectible wine: I agree, this category should not exist. The worst wine enthusiasts, in my mind, are people who buy several cases of an expensive cult wine or famed vintage, only to drink maybe one or two bottles, and intend, instead, to hold them for price appreciation and eventual auction. Wine should not be for investment; many will disagree, but I believe the end-consumer should intend to eventually drink, not sell for a profit, the wine. Owners of rare wines or reknowned vintages such as '61, '82, '90 or '05 Bordeaux, or '02 or '05 Burgundy, or '97 Napa, etc. will disagree and happily pocket profits from Winebid.com auctions or whatever, but I always hate to hear about a case of '47 Cheval Blanc auctioned off for whatever price... why not actually drink the stuff? The winemaker made the wine for drinking; it was made to be drunk, not sold and passed around owners like some kind of vintage rock memorabilia. My opinion, anyway. (Kind of like, why buy a Ferrari if you're not going to drive it ever? It was made to be driven - and driven fast - not to be shown off in a garage. Want to invest? Buy liquid assets like stocks, bonds, real estate (well, maybe not now... actually, it's more illiquid than not) but not things meant for other purposes.)

For those who complain about "overpriced" wines, the fact is simple economics: the "price" of anything should be set by the market. That is, whatever people are willing to pay for the wine, is what the price is. Wineries like Leonetti initially set a price for a wine and, logically, adjust it to fit the market demand. If people will pay $80 for Leonetti cab, then that's the price. If they'll pay $120 (as it is here - and it sells out in days, if not hours!) - that's the price. If they would pay $200, then that's the price. If $300, that's it. There is a point where people will not pay the price to a level where the winery can sell what it needs to sell; I doubt they could get $300, or even $200, a bottle for all that they have. Even people on the waiting list would say, "$80, yeah I can do, but $200? Forget it...". This is the notion of the "market clearing price" in microeconomics. Can Snoqualmie or Hogue - known for wines in the $15-50 range - sell $125 bottles of reserve cab? Who knows? If they priced it there - and it sold to the level where all it needs to sell would be sold - then that's the price. If not, then no. There are other influences (i.e. the reference price - that is, the initially quoted price, which influences what people would pay eventually) as well as subjective factors (wine is a personal taste experience, not easily quantified) but generally, wineries who "overprice" are stuck with unsold inventory. Those who "underprice" are stuck with a "budget" reputation (and probably leaving some money on the table - I reference Snoqualmie, of which I've had a few very nice bottles that I thought were comparable to $55 Walla Walla cabs - not that I want to see higher prices!)

The "reference" price concept is interesting. If Leonetti's "offered" price for the '05 cab was $150 retail, but available at $120 "on sale", suddenly $100 at a discount for mailing list members seems cheap. I knowingly pay tens of dollars more for wines here in Tokyo because the "reference price" is higher here than in the US. Retailers and marketers use this very cleverly. "Regularly $175, on sale this week for $147.75" sounds like a deal - especially the odd sale price - hard to calculate the savings or discount in a split second, unlike "Regularly $100, now $85". Which - at first glance, no calculating allowed! - sounds like the better deal?

I don't like to gripe about the price of wines. Hunker down for a lecture.

True, the wines I would love to have a case of, I can't always afford. I'm like Andy, I keep maybe a bottle or two of Leonetti in my house. I don't like to hear peeps gripe about the price of wines because it is all about personal priorities. So you might want to buy a certain label of wine and you're griping about the price, but if you really want it you save for it or eliminate something else from your life for a few weeks. It's interesting how we find the dollars for those daily items we think we need in our lives: CD's, DVD's, daily latte, fast food crap, specific car and clothing logos/labels, mani/pedi, tanning salons, sports H20 and the list goes on and on for items that we really do not need in our lives. These items can enhance our lives, but we don't need them to survive. During the Depression food was rationed, but sales of alcohol, cigarettes, cosmetics and silk stockings were riding high. And there is nothing wrong mani/pedi's and fake & bakes - - it's all about our personal priorities.

Bashing wineries for their prices like Leonetti and Quilceda disturbs me. Fame for winemakers like Gary Leonetti didn't happen overnight. They also set a precedent for others to brave the art of winemaking and adding to the list that stellar winemaking can happen here in the new world and finally Americans are not settling for Jug o' Gallo.

And it's true I may love my yearly bottle of Leonetti, but it doesn't dismiss those treasured bottles I buy knowing they were award-winning and found in the bottom of the bargain bin.

~Through The Grape Vine~
http://wildwallawallawinewoman.blogspot.com

Why do so many people love to bash Leonetti? My experience has been nothing short of astounding with both the wine and the Figgins family. Having consumed multiples of every single bottle they have ever produced, on many occasions, I have never seen any of the negative aging comments or value comments that so many people love to rant about. Aside from the 1984 and 1986 vintages, which were for the most part dismal in Washington, I have yet to have a well cellared bottle that was over the hill. These wines age like Bordeaux, not Napa, so before you knock the quality of an aged bottle, taste a similar vintage bottle of Napa or Medoc for comparison. I recently had the occasion to open cabs from 1990, 1991 and 1993 and even though the cork was soft on the 93, it was still stunning. A recent tasting of Merlot from 1985, 1990 and 1992 was also an eye opener. They blew the doors off of the highly touted Napa wines of 95, 96 and 97.

Regarding price: compare the quality of one of Gary and Chris' wines against Duckhorn, Opus, BV, Dunn and the like, and all of a sudden, the price becomes moot. Often people want to compare them against the more affordable Washington wines and bitch because they cost quite a bit more. That is like trying to compare a Cask 23 with a Mondavi Coastal. Unfortunatly, many who bash Leonetti are those who have either never tasted it, or those who are on the waiting list and are ticked that they can't get it. Those of us who have been buying it since it was $12 and available by the truckload would gladly take the allocations of those nay sayers out there.

Very interesting topic! For myself, and for most people who really love wine, I think it boils down to..... money! I consider myself fortunate to have about 150 quality bottles in my cellar, which is about a 2 to 3 year supply of "weekend and special occasion" wines. If I had unlimited funds, I would drink nothing but more expensive wines. Unlike a few contributors here, I can tell the difference between most $20 bottles and $100 bottles. Granted, some expensive bottles are simply overpriced by wineries resting on their laurels..... but that is another gripe session! However, some are completely mind-blowing.

Personally, I buy wine in two catagories. First, "daily drinkers", which tend to be in the $10 to $20 range. There are lots of tasty bottles in that price range, and I love finding them. For my "weekend wines", those are usually in the $25 to $50 range. I absolutely love killer zinfandels, and the best tend to be in the $30 to $40 range. Bottles from Bella, Robert Biale, V. Sattui, Quivira, and Papapietro Perry are in the cellar. (Note to other zin lovers.... sorry.... still haven't found any Rosenblums that float my boat!! To much raisin and prune for me....) I buy mostly Dry Creek Valley juice (zinfandels), with a little Russian River Valley, Alexander Valley, and Napa Valley thrown in for fun. For cabs, syrahs, and merlots, I buy mostly Washington wines. For "special occasion" wines, I, like many of the contributors here, usually top out at about $100. We do have a few Stags Leap Wine Cellar Cask 23's from our trips to Napa and Sonoma, some of the better Cosentino's, Quilceda Creeks, Woodward Canyons, Mathews, Delille's, Gary Farell's, Andrew Will's, etc. I almost always buy these wines (except for Quilceda Creek) only after tasting them, so I know what I am buying. Quilceda Creek, for me, I can always buy on pure faith. Not so for Leonetti, which, for me, is overpriced compared to my relative enjoyment of the wine. They are very, very good wines, but for my palette, overpriced. I would gladly take two of Betz's Pere de Familie's for the price of one Leonetti. Or 2 1/2 Fielding Hills cabs. Or even 5 bottles of Robert Karl's claret (Absolute killer deal at $20)! Five nice evenings for the price of one....

Anyone else have two cents to add?

My husband and I pick up wines up to about $30 if they may be appealing. Sometimes I'll shop with a few ideas from articles or friends, or I'll get swayed by the salesperson at the wineshop/grocery store. If I'm picking up something I know we like and the salesperson pulls a "if you like that you'll probably enjoy..." I'm likely to pick that up too if it's in the under $30 range.

We have picked up a few more expensive bottles, our only bottle over $100 was purchased on our trip to Napa. We had the good fortune to come in on a quiet day after a handful of sommeliers had been to Corison Winery. We tasted verticals of the cab and left with a number of bottles and a desire to get many more. Aside from the one spendy bottle, the wines we picked up ranged from $16 to $35. And that spendy bottle is going to stay stashed away for a few more years.

Since we have more than a few bottles at home, new purchases just get added to the pile. We'll take out any wine that appeals to us on any given night. There's about a dozen tucked away more to wait out the time than to wait for a special event.

I am in the industry and enjoy drinking all different types of wine. Having lived in several wine producing countries it is hard for me to pay the prices offered here on imports. The dollar being in the tank is really hurting wine purchases on imports. Especially France and Italy. However there are some great finds to be found in Spanish wines as well as South America. You used to be able to get really good inexpensive wines from Australia and New Zealand wines price curve is very steep going from next to nothing 10 years ago to some pretty pricey wines. With that said, ther are plenty of wines between $5-$50 per bottle that are great for any kind of drinking. I th ink that they can be found across the board through the major wine producing states. I tend not to think about special occassion wines unless I am able to get them at discount and then I might buy one or two depending on the wine. However, I do have a soft spot for excellent German riesling and will not hesitate to pay upwards of $150 for a really good vintage. I recently scored some excellent Jos. Prum from a Fred Meyer, 1990 vintage Whelener Sohenuhr spatlese for $35 bottle. Got the last 6 bottles and it was worth it. As Andy says, all a matter of taste and budget. Good eating and drinking everybody! Prosit!

Very interesting discussion.

I seldom venture beyond $25-30 per bottle, but recently spent $43.99 plus tax and shipping on the Il Bosco 2003 Syrah from Tuscany, #14 on the Wine Spectator top 100 from last year. Why? Shared a bottle with friends during Christmas on the Oregon Coast and absolutely loved it. I spent several months tracking it down on the Internet, finally found six bottles at Wally's in Los Angeles.

I have had four bottles of Leonetti in my life...all from friends who were very proud to serve them. All four had been held too long and were no longer palatable and subsequently dumped by the hosts. Moral: don't spend $100+ on a bottle and wait too long for that special occasion. Invent your own.

As I write, I am sipping an $8.98 Chardonnay from Matawa, found this afternoon in a special bin and highly recommended by the wine steward. Palatable, but not very.

Price threshold is certainly subjective.

I have a 1/2 case of each vintage of Quilceda beginning with 1981.
Let me tell you, this collection hasn't helped me pick up chicks and as an armchair
fourth contestant on Jeopardy!, I never do better than third place.

A case of Quilceda or Leonetti will set you back $1200-$1300.
Again, the importance of this purchase varies from person to person.

My recent barrel buying trip to Napa/Sonoma included buying four cases of extremely good wine. In addition to that, the airfare, lodging, rental car, and some great meals came in around $1800. This trip included visiting with winemakers, private tours and an outstanding gourmet lunch with the Topel's at their winery in Mendocino county.

The point? My new threshold holds into account "experience". Collecting is part of wine appreciation and I will continue to do so. But there is so much more out there.
Drink it in! Pun intended.

A few years back I took the time to plot all the spectator and wine enthusiast scores for red wines and found a good correlation between price and quality below $20 (quality as measured by WS and WE). Above $20, the correlation totally disappeared. I strongly believe that above $20-$30 you pay for scarcity and image. I usually do not spend more than $40 on a bottle of wine unless I am at a restaurant.

so most wine I get is around the 6-14$ range for every day. When we go wine tasting, I taste in Walla Walla, and perhaps buy a 30$, but I spend most of my hard earned dollars in the Columbia Valley.
I could never bring myself to spend $125 dollars on a bottle of wine..That represents a short trip to go wine tasting at several places!

I do want to revisit the comment I had re:Leonetti. I am more the "Bargin Bob" wine shopping person. I have found numerous wines in the $8 to $15 range that I believe are very good wines, regardless of special occasion or any other reason to buy and drink them. There are also many wines in the $15 to $35 range that are as good as just about any wine made in ANY price range. That was my point. Do you buy a Leonetti, or whatever, for $65 to $125+ because that wine is better tasting, better made, or because of the label on the bottle? Put 5 wines (name your varietal or blend)in paper bags and have us taste them and 99% of all will not be able to tell what is the expensive and what is not. It's been done many times. I've both participated and done it also. I don't have a problem with anyone spending whatever they want on any wine they want to. I do think that to give a certain mystique or glamour to any wine only because of a label should not be done. It does not do justice to those that are creating very good to exceptional wines for a reasonable price.

Everyday vino is usually in the $8 - $20 range.

Weekend wine is a different story; $20 - $40. We are usually entertaining, making nice meals, or going out.

Special wines would be $40 - $90.

I don't own any triple digit priced wines and the ones I have tasted were no better than the $50 - $75 bottles I have had.

I really think the triple digit priced wines are really a supply and demand issue not a taste issue. (that's just been my own experience, I'm not wanting to offend anyone)

Everyday - Typically around $12, but we don't balk at opening a $20 bottle for no particular reason if we have taken the time to prepare a decent meal it would match well.

Special Wine - Up to $35 is the "buy without a second thought" threshold. $35-$50 we will pause, do we have a special occasion in mind? Have we tasted this wine in advance?

Collectible Wine - For us collectible wines will eventually be consumed, but there is usually an underlying reason why we are buying that particular wine - a goal for a vertical, "birth year" wine for our kids, a tradition of some sort. In this category prices vary, but our upper limit is still that $50-ish range - though there would be wiggle room for the right reason.

Before I dive into my own wine/value idiosyncrasies I have to make one comment on your's, Andy.

The imperial that you purchased really should fall into the special wine category since on a per bottle basis it only cost you $62.50.

Everyday wine - $25 regardless of color

Special wine - $150 would be about the limit on a per bottle basis. Large format falls into it's own category.

Collectible wine - Unless you are planning on investing in wine, I think that this category shouldn't exist. Collectible seems to imply that you are looking for a return on investment (and not just in drinking pleasure). That being said, this category would then have no limit since it is about the margin return you receive and as long as that is + then the wine cost you nothing.